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Weasel



Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 7123
Location: Weasel Woods, Tn

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Purple Knight wrote:
@allen

Why not just ditch the whole two weapon thing all together...retrain weapon focus wakizashi to weapon focus katana and two weapon fighting to power attack, assuming you can get your st high enough...go for improved initiative or something like that


that's sorta my thinking... Im trying to make too many things work at once

ill repost/

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Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:40 pm View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Weasel



Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 7123
Location: Weasel Woods, Tn

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take 2

1st level___ Power Attack / Weapon Focus Katana __ - Poison use, Sneak Attack 1d6
2nd level___ Vanishing Trick ________________ __ - (Ninja trick, Ki Pool)
3rd level___ Furious Focus__________ - Sneak Attack 2d6, No trace +1
4th level___ Rogue Talent: Underhanded _______________ - (ninja trick, uncanny dodge)
5th level____ Improved Initiative _________________ - Sneak Attack 3d6
6th level____ Combat Trick: Dodge- (ninja trick, light step, no trace +2)
7th level ____ Shadow Strike ____________________ - Sneak Attack 4d6
8th level* ____ Shadow Clone or Fast Stealth - (ninja trick, improved uncanny dodge
9th level ____ Combat Reflexes _________- No trace +3, Sneak Attack 5d6
10th level ____ Invisible Blade ____________________ -(Master ninja trick )
11th level ___ (Samurai 1) _Improved Critical ________ Challenge 1/day, mount, order, resolve

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Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:18 pm View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Purple Knight



Joined: 20 Feb 2011
Posts: 1523
Location: Santa Rosa Beach, FL

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I like that better...not sure you even need to go Samurai at all to be honest, though, just stick with Ninja and fight like a Samurai (unless you are really set on the archetype you referenced earlier).

How are you going to get your St to a 13 for power attack?

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Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:01 am View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
Weasel



Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 7123
Location: Weasel Woods, Tn

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retraining my DEX point from 4th to STR... +1 STR @ 8th... +1 STR @ 12th

While lookin through the feats I did find....

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/piranha-strike-combat power attack for DEX characters

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Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:41 am View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Purple Knight



Joined: 20 Feb 2011
Posts: 1523
Location: Santa Rosa Beach, FL

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I saw that, bit only applies to light weapons, so I can't use it with the scimitar....I have a 13 st though, so I am considering PA given how much I use True Strike. Right now its a choice between more damage with the scimitar, more damage with the spells, or better spell penetration.

Here is what I am thinking:

7th Lv Intensify Spell
9th Lv Spell Penetration
10th Lv Piercing Spell
11th Lv Maximize Spell
13th lv. Empower Spell
15th Lv Spell Perfection Shocking Grasp
17th Lv Greater Spell Penetration

If I take PA, it would be at 10th level instead of Piercing Spell. The question is which will be more useful--+4 to damage (+6 at 12th level) or (effectively) +5 to over come spell resistance. Right now I am leaning more towards Piercing Spell as overcoming spell resistance is 1d20+caster level only (ie, no bonus for intelligence).

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Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:22 am View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
Overdog



Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 1403

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Weasel wrote:
retraining my DEX point from 4th to STR... +1 STR @ 8th... +1 STR @ 12th

While lookin through the feats I did find....

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/piranha-strike-combat power attack for DEX characters


If you have the Strength Power Attack is much better since you dont get the penalties on your off-hand and if you use Suishen two handed you get some nice bonuses.

In regards to your doubts on improved two weapon fighting remember with Invisible blade they are denied their Dex (assuming they dont have uncanny dodge), you will probably be flanking and you get a +2 from attack from invisibility. I had it on my ninja and he hit with that final offhand attack a lot.
Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:44 am View user's profile Send private message
Overdog



Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 1403

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Weasel wrote:
take 2

1st level___ Power Attack / Weapon Focus Katana __ - Poison use, Sneak Attack 1d6
2nd level___ Vanishing Trick ________________ __ - (Ninja trick, Ki Pool)
3rd level___ Furious Focus__________ - Sneak Attack 2d6, No trace +1
4th level___ Rogue Talent: Underhanded _______________ - (ninja trick, uncanny dodge)
5th level____ Improved Initiative _________________ - Sneak Attack 3d6
6th level____ Combat Trick: Dodge- (ninja trick, light step, no trace +2)
7th level ____ Shadow Strike ____________________ - Sneak Attack 4d6
8th level* ____ Shadow Clone or Fast Stealth - (ninja trick, improved uncanny dodge
9th level ____ Combat Reflexes _________- No trace +3, Sneak Attack 5d6
10th level ____ Invisible Blade ____________________ -(Master ninja trick )
11th level ___ (Samurai 1) _Improved Critical ________ Challenge 1/day, mount, order, resolve


At 11th I would take extra rogue talent and then take another Master Ninja trick and take Ghost Step. IMHO the best master ninja trick. Improved critical is good but not great with your current weapon damage bonus. Ghost Step can you get out of a lot of sticky situations (and trust me you find yourself in some) and it is the ultimate scouting tool.
Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:48 am View user's profile Send private message
Weasel



Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 7123
Location: Weasel Woods, Tn

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good idea, I have been staring at the combat feats too long.

extra rogue it is!

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Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:52 am View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
marksman



Joined: 21 Aug 2012
Posts: 1136
Location: Murfreesboro, TN

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marksman wrote:
I am still working on these. I am not getting the Spell Focus/Augmented Summoning Chain and focusing on Raina's abilities. My regular summons will be for utility and emergencies.


Telrond
Feat Progression
1st Level - Arcane Talent (Detect Magic 3/day)
3rd Level - Extra Evolutions
5th Level - Extra Evolutions
7th Level - Resilient Eidolon
9th Level - Expanded Arcana (or get more pages of spell knowledge)
11th Level - Extra Evolutions
13th Level - Expanded Arcana
15th Level - Extra Evolutions
17th Level - Expanded Arcana
19th Level - Expanded Arcana
20th Level - Extra Evolutions



Raina
Feat Progression
1st Level -Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven Curved Blade)
3rd Level - Combat Reflexes
6th Level - Power Attack -2ATK +4Dmg per attack
9th Level - Endurance / Iron Will / Step Up / Intimidating Prowess
11th Level - Die Hard / Improved Iron Will / Step up and Attack
14th Level - Lunge
17th Level - Step Up
19th Level - Stand Still stop opponent with AOO


Trying to figure this out.
Telrond got Resilient Eidolon this time. It is an awesome feat that keeps Raina in the fight if Telrond goes down.
I have Telrond splitting his future feats between Extra Evolutions for Raina and Expanded Arcana to make him more versatile. His concept is channeling power into Raina(and other party members) through buffs. One of the weaknesses of spontaneous casters is the lack of spell options. Expanded Arcana lets me pick up two more known spells below my highest castable level or one spell of my current highest level. This can make him very flexible with situational spells I would not normally take. The other option to save feats is get pages of spell knowledge, but at 1K for a first level spell known, 3K for a second, 6K for a third, it gets expensive fast to increase spell selection. If I get money later I can always retrain the expanded arcana feats. I looked at metamagic, but Telrond has no ability to cast those spells without the level penalties as others can. Also many of the metamagics are less useful on conjuration and summoning spells. I think I will stick to rods. I have a Lesser Rod of Metamagic Reach that allows me to cast touch buffs at range (very useful), I will probably try to get a Lesser Rod of Metamagic Extend to extend my buffs' duration, and eventually a Lesser Rod of Metamagic Echoing. It would allow me to cast again 3 spells (levels 1-3) that I cast previously with the rod. So I can get extra buffs on the group or debuffs on the baddies. Of course I will grab a Lesser Rod of Metamagic Quicken as soon as I have 35K lying around. Smile

Raina
I am trying to make Raina a cork on the battlefield. She has high mobility and can go where needed quickly and hold the line until another party member is ready to hit them hard. She is going to be focused on feats of survivability, mobility, and protecting others through Compel Hostility, Antagonize(maybe), and Shield Allies (+2 AC to all allies in her reach range) .
She has two paths she can take that I see. The Endurance/Die Hard feat tree is 2 feats, but she will be able to stay on her feet when below 0 hps. Combined with Telronds ability to feed her his hit points to keep her above her negative CON value, she becomes very hard to take out of the fight completely. When below 0 hit points, she is staggered and cannot take but one standard action per turn and takes damage if she does anything strenuous, but she can keep in the fight at a cost.
The other feet tree is Iron Will / Improved Iron Will. Then Raina gets a +2 on will saves and gets a reroll on a failed will save. This has the obvious benefit of keeping her from being controlled and killing us. This is not as big a benefit to Raina as a regular fighter. She already has a good will save (her low save is reflex) and can be unsummoned with a standard action. The Step Up / Step Up and Attack feat tree is also attractive, but I am not sure how often a 5' step will help that much.

Any thoughts?
The biggest problem I have is Telrond is a big target on the battlefield without much personal defense. He has good hps, but not much to stop an Ogre Magi at close range. I have invisibility, but I rarely get to cast it because the fights are short and I have more important spells that have to be cast early. I can get a hat of disguise for Telrond and Maybe Raina to disguise their nature, but that is not going to fool someone who knows about us (and the BBGs do). I couls save for a magic item to help protect Telrond, but I am not sure what would help the most for the cost. A ring of invisibility still takes a standard action to use, so I could just cast Invis. A Cloak of Displacement or Blinking could buy me some time in a pinch. I need something that could buy me a round of staying alive so help can arrive or I can cast defensively. I thought about a Ring of Spell Knowledge with Mirror Image on it. That would buy me time at the cost of a third level spell (for me) or a wand of Mirror Image to avoid AoOs. I typically run around the battle with AC15, so if a barbarian catches me in a tight corner, I will get pummeled fast.

Suggestions for feats, magic items, potions, or strategies that would help?

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Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:14 pm View user's profile Send private message
Vimlareon



Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Posts: 1172
Location: Barad-dur

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Hmm.. I like it. I like how Telrond's feat progression is simple yet very effective. I like how you want to learn as many spells as you can in case situations get out of hand or you need to fill in a role really fast or some such. My suggestion would be, keep focusing on buff spells for the group, that's obvious that's what Telrond is good at, but try a damage dealing spell. Black Tenticles is more or less a control spell, and does not focus on dealing damage. Idk, sometimes a good offence is a good defense. Try asking Urza in making you Magic Missile scrolls on his spare time. This will take care of those situations where everyone is buffed up, or out of reach, and you need to do something effective. Throw some magic, there is never a bad time to use Magic Missile. otherwise keep what your doing. Do buff spells, with just a touch of damage dealing spells.

"Better to know many tricks than to focus on one." = Mearl, universalist wizard

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"Listen Vimlareon. It's a large world out there, and I taught you all I know. If you wish to learn more about magic, there is no better teacher than experience itself. May your quest to become an archmage be fulfilled."
Mirillium, Vim's master
Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:52 pm View user's profile Send private message
Purple Knight



Joined: 20 Feb 2011
Posts: 1523
Location: Santa Rosa Beach, FL

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@ Jim

as far as ideas to help Telrond stay out of trouble, might I suggest something to simply help Telrond stay out of reach? In a previous campaign, I had a Elf (old school, basic, essentially a fighter/mage) archer who came across some Boots of Levitation early in the campaign, which suprisingly no one else seemed to want but me...in my humble opinion, these boots were quite literally game changers for my character (and I think to a degree caused Tony a little frustration as well). Levitate upon command for an unlimited duration, allowing my guy to rise above combat and shoot arrows and spells with impunity, not to mention things like tree running through a forest a la Crouching Tiger, or scouting out caverns by scaling the cavern ceilings, easily by passing barriers, getting people out of pits, hiding on the ceiling, jumping off flying ships, etc.

Granted, they would not be as useful against the Orge Magi or other flyers, but they certainly would help against that Barbarian getting in your grill, and while Ranged Weapons are always a possiblity, they generally do not get AOO's against you for casting. Also, as the duration is unlimited, you could be levitating well in advance of a combat (bouncing around while levitating an inch off the floor for example), as my Elf often was, so you just move up and down, or scrabble along a wall/ceiling, as a move action. Not to mention that Raina could actually just drag you around on a rope (or leash, judging from Telrond's icon, he may actually be into that sort of thing)---and that would allow her to move Telrond around while she is flying (or Vasen could do it when he is Flying) as well without causing any additional encumbrance. I really can't stress the almost limitless versatility of being able to levitate at will, particularly when you are an at range fighter/spell caster or just wanting out of combat so you can concentrate on buffing. If the opponents we face fly, you simply stay on the ground and take cover behind the more Martial characters.

Anyway, its just a thought...total price to buy one of those is only 7500, or 5625 if Uzra made them for you.

Small price to pay.

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He made no wild, reckless vow; he swore no oath by saints or devils; he said only: Men shall die for this.
Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:03 pm View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
Purple Knight



Joined: 20 Feb 2011
Posts: 1523
Location: Santa Rosa Beach, FL

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@Allen re Samurai build

To be honest, you don't gain a lot of synergy from adding Samurai and you may be better off just taking levels in Fighter and building your fighting abilities that way given the bonus feats.

The mounted combat would be good, and if you wanted to go that way and go for the Griffon a la Tony's post you would need Mounted Combat and Ride By Attack to make real good use out of it...that plus Monstrous Mount would be 3 feats so you would not complete the tree until 15th level, and if you are not in a position to use the mount (remember, the Samurai cannot dismiss his mount like a Paladin can), it won't do you a lot of good.

If you are bent on Samurai, I would focus on complimenting the style you already have.

First-Armor. The Celestial Armor would actually lower your AC and you can already Air Walk with Suishen. I would instead go with Mithral Breastplate. The max Dex is +5 which accommodates your Dex, it is considered light armor for movement purposes, and +2 would give you a bonus of +8, for a total AC bonus of +13 just walking around. Your +2 to Nat armor makes that 25, add a Magic up'd buckler to the mix, etc, etc.

I would beg or do whatever you need to do to let Tony let you take the Sword Saint Archetype (I know we shied from these because most of us had never done PF before, but I don't think that really applies to you, Allen). Per the chat boards I looked at, the Iajitsu damage should stack with the Sneak Attack Damage

While you are begging Tony for Sword Saint, also beg for Order of the Sword from the Cavalier class--which makes a certain role playing sense given Suishen is likely going to be leading you through the Samurai training.

Take Improved Initiative at 11th to help make sure you can use the Iajutsu and Sneak Attack Combo

Put a pip in St at 12th level, take Power Attack at 13

So...you challenge, charge, Iajutsu strike while they are flat footed, while PA and getting the various bonuses from Sword Saint, Challenge, and Order of the Sword.

If absolutely necessary, you can always go invisible after to counter the -4 you will take on your AC for the first round after the Iajutsu strike.

I think the above would be best for your current build...however, you will need to get some things approved.

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He made no wild, reckless vow; he swore no oath by saints or devils; he said only: Men shall die for this.
Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:47 am View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
scadgrad
Site Admin


Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 9193
Location: The Bear cave

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As long as the archetype is being built in Hero Lab which will catch all the inaccuracies players usually make, it should be fine since Allen "allegedly" knows how to play. Samurai is fluffy and fits the story. I say go for it.

As for the problem with mounts, Carry Companion fixes that quite nicely and you can either buy a wand of same, or have Urza, Baxter, Lageur, Shalelu, Zeph, Vasen, etc. cast it as needed. An animal companion war horse is a fine choice too for when you don't need to fly about. Boon Companion feat I think would be pretty much required.

Sword Saint is OK by me, you just lose the coolness of the mount. Order of the Sword is also fine, but is a "Nonmbo" (as in, not a combo) with Sword Saint.

Maybe I'm seeing things, but I don't see how Celestial Armor would worsen Hattori's AC. He currently has Chain Shirt +1 for an armor bonus of +5. Celestial Armor is chainmail +3 for an armor bonus of +9. Furthermore, the max DEX bonus for Celestial Armor is +8 so, until such time as Hattori goes beyond, what, a Dex 27, he should be good. As if it's not already broken enough, it counts as light armor. Shocked

OTOH, yeah, Fly is a bit of a waste on Hattori. Suffice to say, it bonkers good and is pretty much the end game armor for most all martial characters.

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Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:17 pm View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Overdog



Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 1403

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scadgrad wrote:
Maybe I'm seeing things, but I don't see how Celestial Armor would worsen Hattori's AC. He currently has Chain Shirt +1 for an armor bonus of +5. Celestial Armor is chainmail +3 for an armor bonus of +9. Furthermore, the max DEX bonus for Celestial Armor is +8 so, until such time as Hattori goes beyond, what, a Dex 27, he should be good. As if it's not already broken enough, it counts as light armor. Shocked

OTOH, yeah, Fly is a bit of a waste on Hattori. Suffice to say, it bonkers good and is pretty much the end game armor for most all martial characters.


And to add to that, I am pretty sure Hattori took Offensive Defensive which gives him +1 Dodge bonus per die of sneak attack damage for one round after he sneak attacks and with this armor and invisible blade he would be sporting a 32 AC which he could boost to 35 with Fighting Defensively.
Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:30 pm View user's profile Send private message
Weasel



Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 7123
Location: Weasel Woods, Tn

Post Reply with quote
Overdog wrote:

And to add to that, I am pretty sure Hattori took Offensive Defensive which gives him +1 Dodge bonus per die of sneak attack damage for one round after he sneak attacks and with this armor and invisible blade he would be sporting a 32 AC which he could boost to 35 with Fighting Defensively.


Yes he did.... dodge bonus always stack so I can Easily nab +10 or better AC Wink

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