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scadgrad
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Joined: 04 Feb 2006
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Post Reply with quote
I'm with Dan on this one. I'm perfectly fine with those characters being part of a Campaign book or an ARG as PF has done, but when you put them in the PHB, you setup an immediate point of contention between players who want to play them, and DMs who don't want them in their setting. The idea of Dragonborn in Greyhawk, Ravenloft, or even as PCs in Dragonlance just doesn't work for me. YMMV.

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Overdog



Joined: 08 Jan 2013
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Post Reply with quote
scadgrad wrote:
I'm with Dan on this one. I'm perfectly fine with those characters being part of a Campaign book or an ARG as PF has done, but when you put them in the PHB, you setup an immediate point of contention between players who want to play them, and DMs who don't want them in their setting. The idea of Dragonborn in Greyhawk, Ravenloft, or even as PCs in Dragonlance just doesn't work for me. YMMV.


I wont argue that they should have been part of the DMG as optional races but I dont think the game will fail because of this (per Dan's comment). Halflings have been part of the game since the beginning but they are the most worthless race in concept. They were obviously added because of Tolkien but they have been transformed from the unlikely heros in LoTR to main line combatants. In my opinion they dont fit any niche other than the fact they were in Tolkien and Dragonborn are only here because they were in 4th Ed. Everyone blindly accepts Halflings because they have been in the game from the beginning even though it is absurdly ridiculous a that 3-4 foot tall, 80-95 lb race not known for their strength could stand toe to toe with a 6+ 250 lb orc without an unlimited supply of sheer luck for survivability.

I accept that they are part of the RPG culture now but I have never played one in all my years of gaming because I think they are ridiculous but that hasnt stopped me from playing the game or stopped me from having a good time when others play them. There will always be aspects of the game that individuals dont like but that doesnt mean the game as a whole isnt worth playing.
Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:12 am View user's profile Send private message
scadgrad
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Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 9000
Location: The Bear cave

Post Reply with quote
Good points Jeff.

Yes, the problem is that Halflings changed entirely too much from the original game where they were precisely as you described them. They had some awesome abilities and were very handy, but their physicality was certainly not that of the other, larger races. They were still very much the plucky little "Samwise types" through 2E with reasonable limits.

Blame 3.X for this ridiculous idea of balance uber alles (as if the real world is remotely balanced) that led to the "no negative penalties for any race, everyone gets a soccer trophy" stats of 5E. I'm not sure how you square the circle of being annoyed by halflings playing into this paradigm, yet you're not bothered at all that somehow, all of a sudden, Half Orcs are just as Charismatic (and Dwarves as well I think) as everyone else. By the same measure, why the Hell are humans more Charismatic than everyone else (except, weirdly enough HE and some other race that I can't be arsed to look up while I'm here at work).

Clearly, I'm like a dog with a bone on this element.

Smile

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Overdog



Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 1333

Post Reply with quote
I completely agree with you...and the change to half-orcs also drives me nuts. My overall point is in every edition there have been troublesome aspects that have driven me crazy (and I suspect other people have as well) but we all overlook these inadequacies because the game as a whole offers enough good to outweigh the bad. I personally can overlook the issues with some of the races because I think they are very minor to my enjoyment of the game. Others obviously feel very strongly about that and that is fine but my hackles always get raised when people talk in absolutes about anything and I cant help but respond. Its all in good fun and I just enjoy good intelligent debates.
Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:54 am View user's profile Send private message
scadgrad
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Post Reply with quote
The bit that gets me is that the designers ostensibly want some role-playing to happen in this edition (vis--vis the clunky background rules which really, should have been in the DMG rather than slowing down CharGen in the PHB) yet, they take away one of the greatest role-playing challenges; (gimpy stats).

F-ing Mike Mearls...

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Vimlareon



Joined: 27 Jan 2013
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Location: Barad-dur

Post Reply with quote
Moving on from races (which I see half the people are on one side or the other), does it bother anyone that the magic items are no longer on the PHB? In 3.x, magic items were in the DMs Guide, I respect that, but man that's hard for the players. It became so much easier when players can keep track of what magic items can do. This is a plus to 4th ed DnD and Pathfinder.

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"Listen Vimlareon. It's a large world out there, and I taught you all I know. If you wish to learn more about magic, there is no better teacher than experience itself. May your quest to become an archmage be fulfilled."
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Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:56 pm View user's profile Send private message
ryoga227



Joined: 17 Jul 2011
Posts: 261

Post Reply with quote
I can understand why they didn't include magic items in the PHB. Were players to have access to their stats might encourage meta-gaming. It also gives DMs added flexibility to modify them and make such items feel special and rare. What I didn't like is that they had the DMG and PHB separate. I really liked how they were both included in the same book in Pathfinder. It makes sense why they did it but it's more convenient to have them together. I really liked the Basic D&D book that put all of the rules into one large compendium.
Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:35 pm View user's profile Send private message
XCoconutmonkey06X



Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 6061
Location: The Battle Buddy Tree-Top Club House

Post Reply with quote
I am a fan of no magic items in the PHB. I think the mystery of the items is half the fun.

I am with Tny on the gimp stats as well. I think an addition of negative traits (probably in trade for some benefit elsewhere) can make for some great RP elements. For example, I remember playing a deep gnome in one of TM's campaigns and someone in our group kept casting Daylight on our enemies and so I kept having to flail around, blinded.

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Iguana



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 4732
Location: Richmond, VA

Post Reply with quote
scadgrad wrote:
I'm with Dan on this one. I'm perfectly fine with those characters being part of a Campaign book or an ARG as PF has done, but when you put them in the PHB, you setup an immediate point of contention between players who want to play them, and DMs who don't want them in their setting. The idea of Dragonborn in Greyhawk, Ravenloft, or even as PCs in Dragonlance just doesn't work for me. YMMV.


Yeah, that's what I'm saying in a big way... lol

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Dan

We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
Hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new land,
To fight the horde, sing and cry: Valhalla, I am coming!
Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:25 am View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Iguana



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
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Location: Richmond, VA

Post Reply with quote
Overdog wrote:
scadgrad wrote:
I'm with Dan on this one. I'm perfectly fine with those characters being part of a Campaign book or an ARG as PF has done, but when you put them in the PHB, you setup an immediate point of contention between players who want to play them, and DMs who don't want them in their setting. The idea of Dragonborn in Greyhawk, Ravenloft, or even as PCs in Dragonlance just doesn't work for me. YMMV.


I wont argue that they should have been part of the DMG as optional races but I dont think the game will fail because of this (per Dan's comment). Halflings have been part of the game since the beginning but they are the most worthless race in concept. They were obviously added because of Tolkien but they have been transformed from the unlikely heros in LoTR to main line combatants. In my opinion they dont fit any niche other than the fact they were in Tolkien and Dragonborn are only here because they were in 4th Ed. Everyone blindly accepts Halflings because they have been in the game from the beginning even though it is absurdly ridiculous a that 3-4 foot tall, 80-95 lb race not known for their strength could stand toe to toe with a 6+ 250 lb orc without an unlimited supply of sheer luck for survivability.

I accept that they are part of the RPG culture now but I have never played one in all my years of gaming because I think they are ridiculous but that hasnt stopped me from playing the game or stopped me from having a good time when others play them. There will always be aspects of the game that individuals dont like but that doesnt mean the game as a whole isnt worth playing.


But you forget to mention that because of their smallness they are more dextrous with regards to larger races - a serious advantage not lost on lots of RPG systems... (seriously disadvantageous to Smaug or other dragons, Trolls, Giant Races or whoever might be larger than they are...)

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Dan

We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
Hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new land,
To fight the horde, sing and cry: Valhalla, I am coming!
Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:31 am View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Iguana



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 4732
Location: Richmond, VA

Post Reply with quote
scadgrad wrote:
I'm with Dan on this one. I'm perfectly fine with those characters being part of a Campaign book or an ARG as PF has done, but when you put them in the PHB, you setup an immediate point of contention between players who want to play them, and DMs who don't want them in their setting. The idea of Dragonborn in Greyhawk, Ravenloft, or even as PCs in Dragonlance just doesn't work for me. YMMV.


100% behind this... lol

(why did this have to happen at all - the easy answer is that it didn't' have to happen at all...) Rolling Eyes

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Dan

We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
Hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new land,
To fight the horde, sing and cry: Valhalla, I am coming!
Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:39 am View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Overdog



Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 1333

Post Reply with quote
Iguana wrote:
Overdog wrote:
scadgrad wrote:
I'm with Dan on this one. I'm perfectly fine with those characters being part of a Campaign book or an ARG as PF has done, but when you put them in the PHB, you setup an immediate point of contention between players who want to play them, and DMs who don't want them in their setting. The idea of Dragonborn in Greyhawk, Ravenloft, or even as PCs in Dragonlance just doesn't work for me. YMMV.


I wont argue that they should have been part of the DMG as optional races but I dont think the game will fail because of this (per Dan's comment). Halflings have been part of the game since the beginning but they are the most worthless race in concept. They were obviously added because of Tolkien but they have been transformed from the unlikely heros in LoTR to main line combatants. In my opinion they dont fit any niche other than the fact they were in Tolkien and Dragonborn are only here because they were in 4th Ed. Everyone blindly accepts Halflings because they have been in the game from the beginning even though it is absurdly ridiculous a that 3-4 foot tall, 80-95 lb race not known for their strength could stand toe to toe with a 6+ 250 lb orc without an unlimited supply of sheer luck for survivability.

I accept that they are part of the RPG culture now but I have never played one in all my years of gaming because I think they are ridiculous but that hasnt stopped me from playing the game or stopped me from having a good time when others play them. There will always be aspects of the game that individuals dont like but that doesnt mean the game as a whole isnt worth playing.


But you forget to mention that because of their smallness they are more dextrous with regards to larger races - a serious advantage not lost on lots of RPG systems... (seriously disadvantageous to Smaug or other dragons, Trolls, Giant Races or whoever might be larger than they are...)


I didnt forget to mention it because being dextrous still doesnt mean I want the halfling as a front line combatant. How does being Dextrous to larger races make them anything other than an annoyance. At best if for some reason they cannot hit the halfling all that means is the big monsters go after the other characters.
Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:18 am View user's profile Send private message
Weasel



Joined: 05 Feb 2006
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Location: Weasel Woods, Tn

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